FFS - The Big Picture

[EviBrooklyn]

So Zenobia do you think being a spender would make you more likely or less likely to have success on breeding? I'm thinking less makes the most sense... but honestly, I'm not sure that there's any particular advantage to a player who never buys gems being given better odds. They'd want that person to be frustrated into making their first purchase, while on the other hand, the spender has already proven that they will buy gems to speed up the game so the more they NEED to speed it up the better, right? I guess I'm thinking, lousy odds across the board makes the most sense anyway....

once a spender, always a spender..
It's easier to lower the odds for those who buy, thus forcing them to spend what they have and buy more than trying to get someone that doesnt buy, to buy.
Deals like the last one with the unicorn or with the big habitats (150 gems each) was aimed at those who don't usually buy.
The 40% off on gems was targeting mostly those who usually do buy.
But again, I think it's easier to try to get those who spend to spend some more than work on the non spenders.
Oh well, it's all business to TL and I don't blame them either.

[zenobia42]

If I had not seen the readout of data from a friend with a jail-broken device in another game, to know for a fact that game categorizes people as spenders or free players, I would not be so suspicious of all f2p games. But I saw it. And while I do not know exactly how that switch affected the gameplay of that game, I do think it likely that other f2p games have that switch. And equally likely that the switch is used to try to squeeze more out of the paying players. And as Evi said, once the seal on paying for a free game is broken by a player, it is much more likely that that player will spend more money than it is that a free player will break the seal. So it makes sense to try to coax free players to start paying, but is probably even more fruitful to get those with broken seals to spend more, more, more.

Some f2p games depend so much on their biggest spender that 1 of them is worth 1000 small spenders. We are not allowed to post outside links to articles on the forum but I will say the phenomenon you can search for is "Chasing the whale." Company execs have actually tracked down big spenders they lost outside the game to try to coax them back. Don't think this company is like that, but I do think thhey use subtle and not-subtle tactics to convince players to spend more, and that manipulating the odds is an easy way to do that.

Whether or not the breeding odds get worse for spenders, or for higher-level players, or for animals after an initial high success rate, I firmly believe the tactic of making a game easy, then frustrating enough to nudge us to spend money to regain the lost glory days, is present in this and pretty much any f2p game. The following is a quote from the CEO of a different huge gaming company to a stockholder's meeting:

The second thing and this is a point that I think might be lost on many, is a big and substantial portion of digital revenues are microtransactions. When you are 6 hours into playing [their f2p game], and you run out of ammo in your clip, and we ask you for a dollar to reload, you're really not very price sensitive at that point in time. And for what it's worth the COGS on the clip are really low, and so, essentially what ends up happening and the reason the play first pay later model works so nicely, is a consumer gets engaged in a property they might spend 10, 20, 30, 50 hours on the game, and then when they're deep into the game they're well invested in it, we're not gouging, but we're charging, and at that point in time the commitment can be pretty high. As a personal anecdote I spent about $5000 calendar year to date on doing just this thing, this type of thing, on our products and others, I can readily attest to how well it works. But it is, it's a great model and I think it represents a substantially better future for the industry.

[Vodelle]

I know what whales are, no worries. Although, obviously, for whales to want to spend in a game, there has to be a healthy community/economy as well (whales don't want to be the whale of a small, dying pond with no fish in it). I've known people who have spent five figures on mobile games, haha.

I definitely agree that, once someone has spent money, they are more likely to keep spending. And I am 100% certain analytics are definitely being kept on who buys how much / what / etc - it would be really bad business for them if they weren't keeping track of their profitability and how it's being generated. And yes, maybe it's possible they adjust rates down... but it just seems like poor form to me. Yes, paying players will keep paying... but if they catch wind of being fleeced or are frustrated for too long, there comes a time they quit, too. And whales / high-paying players quitting is exactly what these games don't want to happen.

(edit: also, it just seems like a bad strategy to me. I spend $$ on the package, but I'm not a speed-breeder or buy-from-the-store type of person. If my $5 purchase rewarded me with worse rates... well... counter-intuitive. not everyone will keep spending or spend in the same way, and they don't want to alienate the type of player who maybe drops $2-5 here and there)

[zenobia42]

I know what whales are, no worries. Although, obviously, for whales to want to spend in a game, there has to be a healthy community/economy as well (whales don't want to be the whale of a small, dying pond with no fish in it). I've known people who have spent five figures on mobile games, haha.

I definitely agree that, once someone has spent money, they are more likely to keep spending. And I am 100% certain analytics are definitely being kept on who buys how much / what / etc - it would be really bad business for them if they weren't keeping track of their profitability and how it's being generated. And yes, maybe it's possible they adjust rates down... but it just seems like poor form to me. Yes, paying players will keep paying... but if they catch wind of being fleeced or are frustrated for too long, there comes a time they quit, too. And whales / high-paying players quitting is exactly what these games don't want to happen.

Since you know what "gacha" is, I figured you of anyone here knows what whales are lol! I know a reformed whale who spent 5 digits as well. Glad he swam away from it.

Anyway, unless one of us starts dating a loose-lipped TL employee, we'll never know if they change the odds from player to player. Or for an animal over time. It just seems that way to me. But that may be because after reading articles in game industry internet magazines I've become extremely jaded and suspicious. I also lost a good amount of trust / willingness to give them the benefit of the doubt, after seeing one of the tactics we know for a fact this company has pulled on us: pretending an animal (Frankenswine) is a permanent addition by marking it exactly the same as all other permanent animals, AFTER the first limited animal in this game was released and that one was upfront about being limited from the start... then suddenly putting an extremely short (4-day) timer on it. IMO, that was really underhanded. I didn't like that at all. And now I have to wonder if any new animal (or old!!!) might suddenly get a 1/2-week timer on it, ensuring those who didn't get it yet now have an exceptionally low chance of getting it due to the sudden time limitation no matter if the odds are unchanged... unless they spend money to get it. That REALLY ticked me off. Not so much the Frankenswine itself, but the fear it instilled in so many of us that the rug might get pulled out from under us again.

Also, this company has a practice, more obvious in other of its games than this one, of making "gem traps" as they are called in the TL forums. This is another tactic that TL is not alone in practicing, in which the button to spend premium game currency is in the EXACT same location as where you would tap next had something not gone wrong. For example, if you are planting your farms, you tap "plant" on one farm then tap the next farm then the plant button again. But if the game doesn't like the way you tap the next farm, you "accidentally" hit the speed up button on the first farm. The speed-up button could be anywhere on the screen. But they choose to place it EXACTLY where the plant button is, and they also somehow do not register that you tapped the next farm. Gems gone. No gem spend confirmation button as IMO more ethical companies have. I also know from personal experience that if you lose $15 worth of gems in a single tap gem trap in a TL game, and tell support you really didn't tap the speed up button, you tapped a little to near it, you will not only not get a refund, but you will not be treated with a shred of humanity. They CAN put gem confirmation buttons in their games. Other companies do. And in Castle Story, there is a 30-page thread of people telling nearly the same story as mine, and begging for a gem confirmation button, and they don't even deign to reply to the thread. If you fall into a purposely laid gem trap, your money is taken from you. So I do not believe this company is the most ethical one around. And those two examples are why I am suspicious of them in general. Perhaps the the worse odds for paying players is just a conspiracy theory. But it is one founded not on thin air, but on examples of other ways this company heavily manipulates and outright takes gems from us without our permission.

[Vodelle]

zenobia -- haha, oh don't worry, I posted about the gem trap already too I've played games where they had that same issue but fixed it after people complaining, so the fact that TL hasn't does indeed speak volumes about ethics.

I guess I just like to be optimistic about the games I'm playing. (When I lose that optimism, I stop playing!) I understand I'm coming in here without much knowledge of prior events / having played the game for long, so I can understand why our outlooks would differ. For what it's worth, I do think FFS is one of the less 'friendly' f2p island games. I'm playing another one right now that's a lot more communicative with its userbase. In fact, you can upgrade your breeding tree there, and the last upgrade not only reduces time but gives you a 20% bonus to breeding rare combinations.

To be fair, I once saw someone complaining about their luck (or lack of) there, too, but I can't see that game in particular doing something underhanded like having different rates for different people at all, and it was clear that person didn't understand statistics at all. For now I'm just going to assume that FFS just has really low rates for anything nice (like limiteds) and go about my way.

[EviBrooklyn]

Whether or not the breeding odds get worse for spenders, or for higher-level players, or for animals after an initial high success rate, I firmly believe the tactic of making a game easy, then frustrating enough to nudge us to spend money to regain the lost glory days, is present in this and pretty much any f2p game. The following is a quote from the CEO of a different huge gaming company to a stockholder's meeting:

When odds are too low, it becomes frustrating for the paying customer
Starting with toucan and any new (limited or not) animal, my experiences has been that speeding the breeding has cost me more than buying them straight out from the store. I would totally stop buying if I have the same experience this coming month.
If I spend money on gems its because I like to spend on my entertainment not because TL is good at getting me to do that. I don't like to be played for stupid and obviously TL wont be able to achieve that either as they use standard industry methods that many people are familiar with...we go too often to Atlantic City to know better, there's a time that you just get up and leave. My husband is pretty good at getting up and leaving when he is making money and stop gambling when odds are completely against him. It's about self-control.

[zenobia42]

zenobia -- haha, oh don't worry, I posted about the gem trap already too I've played games where they had that same issue but fixed it after people complaining, so the fact that TL hasn't does indeed speak volumes about ethics.

I guess I just like to be optimistic about the games I'm playing. (When I lose that optimism, I stop playing!) I understand I'm coming in here without much knowledge of prior events / having played the game for long, so I can understand why our outlooks would differ. For what it's worth, I do think FFS is one of the less 'friendly' f2p island games. I'm playing another one right now that's a lot more communicative with its userbase. In fact, you can upgrade your breeding tree there, and the last upgrade not only reduces time but gives you a 20% bonus to breeding rare combinations.

Most of what I'm saying, though in response to you, is aimed at the general reading audience not you in particular - sorry if it seems like I'm explaining things to you that you probably know more about than I!!!

Anyway, I'm enjoying the conversations in this thread. Your thoughts are so different from mine and that is just the sort of thing I like to hear and inform / influence my opinion. I hope this thread stays alive.

[zenobia42]

When odds are too low, it becomes frustrating for the paying player.
Starting with toucan and any new (limited or not) animal, my experiences has been that speeding the breeding has cost me more than buying them straight out from the store. I would totally stop buying if I have the same experience this coming month.
If I spend money on gems its because I like to spend on my entertainment not because TL is good at getting me to do that. I don't like to be played for stupid and obviously TL wont be able to achieve that either as they use standard industry methods that many people are familiar with...we go too often to Atlantic City to know better, there's a time that you just get up and leave. My husband is pretty good at getting up and leaving when he is making money and stop gambling when odds are completely against him. It's about self-control.

Exactly! I think it's great that people spend money on this game... people who understand that they use these tactics and accept that as part of the game. But I don't think these tactics are as common knowledge as you and Vodelle think. I just don't want other players who are new to the whole f2p thing to spend without realizing that there is a whole lot of manipulation going on. So that's why I started this thread to talk about that and other Big Picture issues with the game. So anyone playing the game and checking out the forum can make an informed decision about spending on the game or not.

[Vodelle]

Exactly! I think it's great that people spend money on this game... people who understand that they use these tactics and accept that as part of the game. But I don't think these tactics are as common knowledge as you and Vodelle think. I just don't want other players who are new to the whole f2p thing to spend without realizing that there is a whole lot of manipulation going on. So that's why I started this thread to talk about that and other Big Picture issues with the game. So anyone playing the game and checking out the forum can make an informed decision about spending on the game or not.

Yeah, all these tricks seem like 10000% common knowledge to me. Props to Brooklyn for not putting up with overbearing f2p practices, either. I'm personally willing to spend money, but I'm not going to dump endless amounts into games that are obviously only trying to get more from me unless I'm getting something back from them.

...but I am definitely reminded of a different dragon/island/breeding game I played for a bit maybe half a year ago. Their first special event week had people speed-breeding etc. And boy did people get mad afterwards the one time I peeked into the forums. Stuff about the game fleecing them out of their currency because they expected to get the super rare, blah blah blah. I mean, yeah, if you speed breed and still don't get what you're looking for, it really sucks, but that's a chance you take in this kind of scenario. It wasn't just that, it was them getting angry over basic f2p premium currency spending incentives/typical poor luck etc. I felt really bad for them, because if somehow you're new to the world of f2p, $5 can turn into $50 can turn into a sour mood real fast.

[[S8] Elsa]

Thank you for sharing your thoughts. Closing this up for being an off topic thread. Free for all style threads more often than not turn into disruptions and spam.

If there's not an existing thread about the topic you're discussing (there are a few about the topics mentioned here already), feel free to create a new one as long as it's within the forum rules.

Thank you!