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View Full Version : Elements relations changed? what wins over stone?



noabcd
11-10-14, 07:46 AM
Did anyone else notice that the elements act differently on the battlegrounds lately?
Nature does not produce strong attacks against Earth anymore...

I think that it is related to the Treasure Toucan. Maybe the new Gem type is strong against earth and weak against nature...

EDIT:

It seems they returned things to the way they were. You may return to your desks....

SANDSCApe
11-10-14, 10:30 AM
Seriously?
I hope not because I'll have to recalculate NEBs and redo the whole Universal Fighter Selector all over again. Grrrr!

Please post any element ratings you observe that do not match the received wisdom we have shared so far.
Perhaps Zenobia or someone else can post an established strength/weakness chart against which people can compare fresh observations.
Or if you've committed the information to memory (like me), just post any rating that is now coming up different. BE SPECIFIC. If Nature is not rated strong against earth, what is the rating? Weak? Neutral?

readysetgo888
11-10-14, 10:42 AM
Seriously?
I hope not because I'll have to recalculate NEBs and redo the whole Universal Fighter Selector all over again. Grrrr!

Please post any element ratings you observe that do not match the received wisdom we have shared so far.
Perhaps Zenobia or someone else can post an established strength/weakness chart against which people can compare fresh observations.
Or if you've committed the information to memory (like me), just post any rating that is now coming up different. BE SPECIFIC. If Nature is not rated strong against earth, what is the rating? Weak? Neutral?

I just tried it and using the Nature attack against a Rock Rhino, it said nothing. Not strong, not weak, so just neutral.

I really hope we're not going to be severely handicapped by not having a treasure toucan in battles. I'll be super pissed if that's the case. I don't think the single gem animal should have anything to do with battles, really. If anything, it should function like a bonus and be stronger, but that should not make the other elements weaker.

If this impacts the ability to win tournaments (which is already quite difficult) I am going to be so pissed.

SANDSCApe
11-10-14, 10:53 AM
I just tried it and using the Nature attack against a Rock Rhino, it said nothing. Not strong, not weak, so just neutral.

I really hope we're not going to be severely handicapped by not having a treasure toucan in battles. I'll be super pissed if that's the case. I don't think the single gem animal should have anything to do with battles, really. If anything, it should function like a bonus and be stronger, but that should not make the other elements weaker.

If this impacts the ability to win tournaments (which is already quite difficult) I am going to be so pissed.

They may have rebalanced the strengths and weaknesses to incorporate the new Treasure element, but hopefully only a few relationships will be affected. We won't have a chance to fight Toucan until maybe tomorrow, if they bring a tournament. But it's not just Treasure I'm concerned about; it's the others that may have shifted.

Have faith. We may discover some new strengths to our advantage, no?

zenobia42
11-10-14, 01:04 PM
I just tried it and using the Nature attack against a Rock Rhino, it said nothing. Not strong, not weak, so just neutral.

I really hope we're not going to be severely handicapped by not having a treasure toucan in battles. I'll be super pissed if that's the case. I don't think the single gem animal should have anything to do with battles, really. If anything, it should function like a bonus and be stronger, but that should not make the other elements weaker.

If this impacts the ability to win tournaments (which is already quite difficult) I am going to be so pissed.

Oh craap. That is definitely a change. Which means every single element vs. every single other element needs to be confirmed / our notes changed. Ai yai yai!

readysetgo888
11-10-14, 01:31 PM
I sincerely hope we don't get a new tournament tomorrow if all the elements have changed... that would be pretty unfair.

I will start making a log of what I'm fighting/using if that helps! I'm not very far into the Thorilla battles.

Water, Earth strong against pure Fire.
Electric strong against Dark-Water animal.
Nature, Dark, Water, Fire neutral to Dark-Water animal.

readysetgo888
11-10-14, 02:46 PM
I'm wondering if the weak attack has gone away. I have tried every element against the Sea Lion on level 15, and got neutral attacks for every single one except for Electric, which is rated strong.

I'm getting ready to say that it's totally changed... I've now tried to beat this Sea Lion like 6 times and failed every time. I hope that whatever has been changed hasn't made winning harder. I hope that it hasn't made selecting the right animal to use harder either. Without the fighter selector, which by the way I am sincerely grateful for, I never would have beat the tournaments that I did win, as I just barely beat them.

Tournaments definitely did NOT need to get harder so I do very much hope that isn't what's happened, but based on TL's track record it wouldn't surprise me in the slightest. I'm pretty sure they've only ever given me reasons to be pessimistic about any change because they always seemed to be designed to make the game more annoying/frustrating.

zenobia42
11-10-14, 02:52 PM
I'm wondering if the weak attack has gone away. I have tried every element against the Sea Lion on level 15, and got neutral attacks for every single one except for Electric, which is rated strong.

I'm getting ready to say that it's totally changed... I've now tried to beat this Sea Lion like 6 times and failed every time. I hope that whatever has been changed hasn't made winning harder. I hope that it hasn't made selecting the right animal to use harder either. Without the fighter selector, which by the way I am sincerely grateful for, I never would have beat the tournaments that I did win, as I just barely beat them.

Tournaments definitely did NOT need to get harder so I do very much hope that isn't what's happened, but based on TL's track record it wouldn't surprise me in the slightest. I'm pretty sure they've only ever given me reasons to be pessimistic about any change because they always seemed to be designed to make the game more annoying/frustrating.

In an attempt at optimism (which I am not known for as regards this game lol), I will say the "weak" attack going away completely is a lot better than the "strong" attack going away, right?

It does indeed sound like they are no longer labeling any attack as "weak." However, if some attacks are still labeled "strong," that means we can still choose fighters that give strong attacks. It will be more difficult to determine where any new element that comes along fits in the chart, but we'll figure it out. It also makes it more difficult to precisely determine the new relationships when one changes. And if nature vs. pure earth is no longer strong, then something has changed.

Okay, let's all think this through together. Nature is not strong to earth, dark or water. That or it is strong to either dark or water but weak to the other.
If we can assume it is strong vs. something, we should try it vs. electric, fire and gem. And also try it against water and dark without the other.
I have finished the last battlegrounds so I'm sorry but I can't help until the next battlegrounds / arena is released.

readysetgo888
11-10-14, 03:15 PM
Since I still have a long way to go in the battlefield I will definitely post everything that I try and what it tells me... I would prefer to leave the analyzing to someone else though lol. I agree that it doesn't seem bad if weak attacks have gone away. Maybe they've made tournaments easier? Hahahahaha why would they do that? Then people would spend less money on them!

If the tournaments have been made easier it would make me like TL more... so I hope so, but not optimistic just based on past history. The evolution times drastically changing to be not just somewhat worse but WAY worse has made me very skeptical, among other things.

zenobia42
11-10-14, 03:20 PM
Since I still have a long way to go in the battlefield I will definitely post everything that I try and what it tells me... I would prefer to leave the analyzing to someone else though lol. I agree that it doesn't seem bad if weak attacks have gone away. Maybe they've made tournaments easier? Hahahahaha why would they do that? Then people would spend less money on them!

If the tournaments have been made easier it would make me like TL more... so I hope so, but not optimistic just based on past history. The evolution times drastically changing to be not just somewhat worse but WAY worse has made me very skeptical, among other things.

I doubt they have been made easier lol. But yeah, I 100% agree that pretty much every change they make to the game is to try to get us to spend more money on it, by making it more frustrating for us to try to progress in the game without spending.

Anyway, yes, just listing your results is a GREAT help! There are enough of us crazy enough to actually enjoy the analysis of your and others' data that any data put out there is great. :D

readysetgo888
11-10-14, 03:50 PM
Ok, I will keep this post updated with my results:

Sea Lion (Dark-Water): Electric strong, all other elements neutral. Won with Storm Sphynx, using just the Electric attack (strong, strong, critical).
Armordillo (Earth-Fire): Water strong, Earth strong... Won 1st try with Glacial Griffin, multiple strong attacks and no critical attack
Leopard (Electric): Earth strong, Fire neutral, Dark neutral... lost with Magmacore, won with Scarecrow (critical hit)
Rainguin (Water-Earth): Electric neutral, Nature neutral, Earth neutral, Dark neutral, Water neutral, **Fire weak, **Crystal/Gem strong.... won with Grassquatch by rolling critical but my game crashed. Lost with Chameneon, lost with Daredevil, lost with Unicorn x2, won with Glacial Griffin (critical, neutral).
Chromadile (Water-Dark): Won with Storm Sphynx
Bansheep (Electric-Dark): Earth strong, Fire strong, Electric neutral, Nature neutral, Dark neutral, **Water weak
Skyger (Dark): Fire strong
Solar Simiam (Nature-Fire): Fire strong, Water strong, Gem/Crystal strong, Electric neutral, **Nature weak


So far it seems that the big difference is no weak attacks. Maybe that's the only difference? Or, maybe now it DOES make a difference which of the two attacks you use with a two element animal. I wouldn't object if that was the case...
** I found a weak attack but now it seems there's no strong element against earth! I will try crystal/gem/unicorn next.
** Ok crystal/gem rated strong against earth-water. Now I feel like I have to clarify that's it's crystal/gem since toucan is regular gem... Confusing.

zenobia42
11-10-14, 06:00 PM
So far it makes no sense, lol. But I'm sure the more info that comes in, the more sense it will make.

So far it seems that the one change we can put a finger on is nature is no longer strong vs. earth. Either that or nature is somehow both strong AND weak vs. earth.

Hypothesis (ignoring the whole nature apparently no longer strong to earth thing): perhaps it is no longer true that if your attack is strong vs. one element but weak vs. the other that they compute that to be strong + weak = weak. Maybe now strong + weak = neutral? Just thinking out loud. Not anywhere close to drawing conclusions yet.

cocauina
11-10-14, 06:12 PM
Ok, I will keep this post updated with my results:

(...)
Rainguin (Water-Earth): Electric neutral, Nature neutral, Earth neutral, Dark neutral, Water neutral, **Fire weak, **Crystal/Gem strong.... won with Grassquatch by rolling critical but my game crashed. Lost with Chameneon, lost with Daredevil, lost with Unicorn x2, won with Glacial Griffin (critical, neutral).
(...)

Against a Glacial Griffin (water-earth), I've used nature attack from Fairy Ferret, Armordillo, Spruce Moose, and nothing, no weak, strong or critical hit, spent 5 energy against Glacial and nothing, only the nature attack from Bamboon gave me a critical and a strong attack..

readysetgo888
11-10-14, 06:53 PM
So far the only change I can see is that Nature is no longer strong to Earth. I don't know why they would have done this... Now only Gem(Crystal) is strong to Earth. Seems like a big penalty for those that don't have the Unicorn.

zenobia42
11-10-14, 07:06 PM
So far the only change I can see is that Nature is no longer strong to Earth. I don't know why they would have done this... Now only Gem(Crystal) is strong to Earth. Seems like a big penalty for those that don't have the Unicorn.

I agree that if it proves that ONLY gem is strong to earth going forward, that is MASSIVELY unfair.

It may be a pipe deam, but I am really hoping that what happned was that they had to program how the new element combos (gem-fire and water-fire) behave in the arena and in doing so they accidentally made nature no longer strong to earth, and they will quickly correct that. I doubt it, but I really hope.

readysetgo888
11-10-14, 07:18 PM
I think that they've also changed the way the weak elements work, although I'm not totally sure since it's been a while (since the fight selector) since I used anything that would have been weak. I'm thinking maybe now an attack is only weak if it's weak to BOTH elements. I'm not sure though, but I will continue to try to find out.

Splashy81
11-10-14, 08:19 PM
Just throwing in my recent experience with this! I am taking my sweet time with Thorilla because that egg will just go straight to storage (and sit there with about 3 other creatures I have no room for)! Expansions PLEASE!!

Battle 38, gem attack: Crit!
16600

Battle 48, gem attack: Nothing! (same elements as hedgehog, obviously)
16601

Battle 48, nature attack: Nothing!
16602

HMMMMM!!!?????

Ok, I recall that I have very recently leveled up my Troll from an 11 to 13... Lemme give that a shot!

Battle 48, nature attack: voila!
16603

My point is this: I hate leveling up my creatures cause it always messes with what "works" for me in the battlegrounds/tournaments. And my second point is: MORE EXPANSIONS PLEASE!

momofgiants
11-10-14, 09:41 PM
Ok I am working on level 74, ancient sloth. So far used sloth, earth was weak and nature was neutral; nightmare, fire was neutral and dark was neutral; hippogryph, water was neutral and lighting was weak; Sea Drake, dark was neutral and water was neutral. All are level 14 except Sea Drake which is 13. I have no crystal animal. Also for the last few days have been winning most levels with my Ancient Sloth. I will go check my notes and post results.

momofgiants
11-10-14, 11:58 PM
Here is what I have. Hope someone can make some sense of it. From levels 54 through 72 I used sloth and won except on the following levels, 63 used nightmare, 68 used Terradactyl, levels 73 used nightmare. Saw this post at this point and took extra notes...
level 74 N,W,F,D are neutral, E,Light are weak;
level 75 F strong, L,W neutral and E,N weak (I got crit so never saw what D was);
level 76 W,E are strong (got a defense win as Sand would call it);
level 77 E,W are strong, D,N,L are weak, F gave me crit;
level 78 E,L strong, N,D,F, are weak and F gave me crit.

I hope this helps.

noabcd
11-11-14, 12:15 AM
From my observation the only change, as mentioned before, is that nature is no longer strong against earth.
I cannot confirm everything, but I am battling a few times a day and get the expected results.

Wonder if there is anyone with Treasure Toucan that can validate my guess....

ramothsflight
11-11-14, 12:51 AM
Just won with Pegasus against Bamboon. Scored two critical hits. Used only nature.

For the longest time I've had plenty of nothing show up on certain attacks. They may have been weak attacks - no way to know for sure - but like Splashy above, there have been many blanks when I battle.

SANDSCApe
11-11-14, 03:04 AM
If we are ever going to wade through all the gathered data and update our charts, we need the data to be presented clearly. For the current purposes, we only need the element/combo of the challenger and the rating of whatever elements were used against it.

E.g., "Against Dark-Nature: Electric neutral, Dark strong, Water neutral, Earth weak, Nature neutral, Fire strong.

It doesn't matter whether you are fighting a Planther or an Aurora Pegasus or who your fighter is; the strengths and weaknesses will be the same. But it may help to name the animal so that we are clear about the elements involved in case we occasionally mix them up. It's also irrelevant to the current inquiry whether you won or lost, and the Critical Hit is absolutely useless information for this (LOL).

Strange as this may sound, testing is best done with weak fighters (like baby commons). If you go in with your big guns and beat up the challenger, you don't get a chance to test out other elements. Try to lose, please! LOL. Warning: You may find that even losing can be difficult when it's what you're actually trying to do. The babies will go buckwild!

SANDSCApe
11-11-14, 03:34 AM
The weak rating has not disappeared. Whatever element used to be rated weak that is now showing up blank has been rendered neutral, which means it now has a strength against that challenger that it didn't have before; and the challenger now has a weakness against that element that wasn't there before.

One strength plus one weakness does NOT give a weak rating, and it NEVER did! That misconception comes from not matching and scoring BOTH the responder's elements against both the challenger's elements. You will see a weak rating if the responder has two weaknesses and only one strength; or three weaknesses and only two strengths; or one weakness and no strength. In other words, you can only get a weak or strong rating if there is an IMBALANCE between the responder's weaknesses and strengths against a particular challenger. As long as they balance, the rating will be neutral. BUT...

...BUT, I've noticed that the system will sometimes NOT give a rating when it should say strong or weak, especially on the first attack. The responses are not always perfectly accurate so it helps to repeat elements that get no rating, especially if you think it shouldn't be neutral.

Don't worry, friends, the battles cannot systematically get harder with the reassignment of any strength or weakness. If element A is now weak against element B, that's not a bad thing because it also means element B is now STRONG against element A! They can't introduce a weakness without also creating a corresponding strength. The only way they can make battles systematically harder is to lower the odds that are mapped to each range of scores (which they probably do for Arena Tournaments anyway). Knowledge is our best weapon; we'll be okay once we sort it all out.

SANDSCApe
11-11-14, 05:29 AM
...
E.g., "Against Dark-Nature: Electric neutral, Dark strong, Water neutral, Earth weak, Nature neutral, Fire strong.
...

When I re-tested Dark against Dark-Nature, it came up neutral three times. Again, the tutorial feature gets a bit wonky sometimes, so try to re-test after any unexpected ratings or blanks.
And keep on mind that the ratings are NOT measuring the strength of your attack. "Strong Attack" just means standard (lame) damage with a strong element.

IF YOU HAVE A TOUCAN and your battleground is open, please fight each challenger with the Toucan first! What we need more than anything else is the relationship between the Treasure element and all the others.

No need to fret over the adjustments. They are inevitable whenever a new element is introduced (unless the element is not allowed to fight). Not everything is about squeezing gems and money out of players. TeamLava is not Evil Inc.

SANDSCApe
11-11-14, 06:14 AM
Against a Glacial Griffin (water-earth), I've used nature attack from Fairy Ferret, Armordillo, Spruce Moose, and nothing, no weak, strong or critical hit, spent 5 energy against Glacial and nothing, only the nature attack from Bamboon gave me a critical and a strong attack..

Can you clarify this? If Bamboon gave you a strong against Griffin, then it may NOT be the case that Nature is no longer strong over Earth. Then again, you didn't specify which element got you the strong rating. These details do matter.

SANDSCApe
11-11-14, 06:27 AM
Just throwing in my recent experience with this! I am taking my sweet time with Thorilla because that egg will just go straight to storage (and sit there with about 3 other creatures I have no room for)! Expansions PLEASE!!

Battle 38, gem attack: Crit!
16600

Battle 48, gem attack: Nothing! (same elements as hedgehog, obviously)
16601

Battle 48, nature attack: Nothing!
16602

HMMMMM!!!?????

Ok, I recall that I have very recently leveled up my Troll from an 11 to 13... Lemme give that a shot!

Battle 48, nature attack: voila!
16603

My point is this: I hate leveling up my creatures cause it always messes with what "works" for me in the battlegrounds/tournaments. And my second point is: MORE EXPANSIONS PLEASE!

Those ratings for the Emerald seem erratic and should be retested, especially since the Gem attack came up blank against Earth-Nature, suggesting Gem is either weak to one of those elements while strong against the other, or is neutral to both. I doubt they would have weakened the ultra like that. I'm putting a question mark next to that set of data for now.

(By the way, I'm mapping all the reported ratings to a grid, so that's why I'm going through the thread and querying some of the reports. Nothing personal, EVER; just seeking clarity.)

SANDSCApe
11-11-14, 06:38 AM
Here is what I have. Hope someone can make some sense of it. From levels 54 through 72 I used sloth and won except on the following levels, 63 used nightmare, 68 used Terradactyl, levels 73 used nightmare. Saw this post at this point and took extra notes...
level 74 N,W,F,D are neutral, E,Light are weak;
level 75 F strong, L,W neutral and E,N weak (I got crit so never saw what D was);
level 76 W,E are strong (got a defense win as Sand would call it);
level 77 E,W are strong, D,N,L are weak, F gave me crit;
level 78 E,L strong, N,D,F, are weak and F gave me crit.

I hope this helps.

Please name the challengers if you can. I can't tell which animals you're fighting against because I don't know which battleground you are on (and don't have a reference handy even if I did know.)

cocauina
11-11-14, 07:47 AM
Can you clarify this? If Bamboon gave you a strong against Griffin, then it may NOT be the case that Nature is no longer strong over Earth. Then again, you didn't specify which element got you the strong rating. These details do matter.

Actually, the only "fail" I've made on that post, was saying that I've used Armordillo instead of Thunderhawk, didn't used Pandaffodil because he was on the breeding garden, from Fairy Ferret (1 battle), Thunderhawk (2 battles) and Spruce Moose (2 battles), I've used only nature attack, no weak, strong or critical hit. Only used Bamboon on 1 battle against Glacial Griffin and I've said what animal, attack and what gave me against Glacial, just read what is in bold, you didn't pay attention when you read my comment.


Against a Glacial Griffin (water-earth), I've used nature attack from Fairy Ferret, Armordillo, Spruce Moose, and nothing, no weak, strong or critical hit, spent 5 energy against Glacial and nothing, only the nature attack from Bamboon gave me a critical and a strong attack..

zenobia42
11-11-14, 08:48 AM
Don't worry, friends, the battles cannot systematically get harder with the reassignment of any strength or weakness. If element A is now weak against element B, that's not a bad thing because it also means element B is now STRONG against element A! They can't introduce a weakness without also creating a corresponding strength. The only way they can make battles systematically harder is to lower the odds that are mapped to each range of scores (which they probably do for Arena Tournaments anyway). Knowledge is our best weapon; we'll be okay once we sort it all out.

Actually, the battles CAN get harder, MUCH harder, for a lot of players, if suddenly the only element that is strong against earth is gem. Which very much seems to be the case now, based on the data shared thus far.

That rearranging the element strengths cannot make battles harder is based on the erroneous assumption that everyone battling has all the elements. There are tons and tons of players out there with no crystal-gem element. And probably 10x that many with no currency-gem element.

Anyway, thanks for taking the time to sort all this incoming data out!

momofgiants
11-11-14, 12:12 PM
Level 74 was Ancient sloth
Level 75 was Emerald Dragon
Level 76 was Terrior(D,F)
Level 77 was Yak-o-lantern(E,F)
Level 78 was Steamtrunck(W,F)
Level 79 was Unicorn(G) D was strong; F,L,W was neutral; E,N was weak
Level 80 was Thorilla(L,E) E was strong; D,N was neutral; L,W,F was weak

If you need anything else let me know. Thanks for figuring this all out.

SANDSCApe
11-11-14, 01:50 PM
Actually, the only "fail" I've made on that post, was saying that I've used Armordillo instead of Thunderhawk, didn't used Pandaffodil because he was on the breeding garden, from Fairy Ferret (1 battle), Thunderhawk (2 battles) and Spruce Moose (2 battles), I've used only nature attack, no weak, strong or critical hit. Only used Bamboon on 1 battle against Glacial Griffin and I've said what animal, attack and what gave me against Glacial, just read what is in bold, you didn't pay attention when you read my comment.

Ooops! Okay, sorry about that, and thank you so much for setting me straight. And hopefully that information helps dispel the notion some people have that only Gem is strong against Earth. If your Nature attack was strong against Water-Earth, then Nature still trumps Earth apparently (unless it is now suddenly strong against Water -- not likely).

I will continue gathering everyone's reports.

SANDSCApe
11-11-14, 02:00 PM
If it turns out that Gem is the only element strong against Earth, that still doesn't make the battles SYSTEMATICALLY harder, even if one doesn't have a Gem animal. The only pure Earth is a common that can be beaten with many supers or rares that are neutral to Earth. All other Earth challengers are hybrids, so one can tackle it with a super that has one element neutral to the Earth half and another element strong to the other half of the hybrid.
There will ALWAYS be a way.

Lesimony
11-11-14, 02:10 PM
I am fighting a Dark Earth opponent (Scarecrow) and intentionally using low levels to test as many combos as possible.
Using Earth Nature (Plantler) both attacks showed neutral.
Using Electric Water (Falconch) Electric showed weak, Water showed neutral.
Using Dark Fire (Firefox) both showed neutral.
Using Water Nature (Turtisle) both showed neutral.
Using Dark Nature (Spruce Moose) both showed neutral.
Using Nature Fire (Solar Simian) both showed neutral.
Using Dark Earth (Racmoon) both showed neutral.
Using Electric Nature (Eagle Beagle) Electric showed weak, Nature showed neutral.
Using Earth Fire (Rampage) both showed neutral.
Using Water Earth (Glacial Griffin) got a critical first hit so no data.

That's it for this opponent. I used every element but Legendary/Crystal and the new Gem, in several different combos and never got a "Strong" hit. Will put results for next opponent in a new post.

ninasidstorm8
11-11-14, 02:57 PM
I just used a Level 15 Storm Sphinx against the level 1 Rainguin in round 3 of the Thanksgibbon tournament. I used Nature for the first two attacks and they were neutral. I used Electric on the third attack to see what would happen and it was neutral as well. A surprise loss for me. What I mean by neutral is no text on the attack. Something appears to have changed. In past tournaments, A nature attack from Electric/Nature was always strong against Water/Earth.

sweetypies97
11-11-14, 03:01 PM
Something has definitely changed. Not cool especially right before a tournament.

zenobia42
11-11-14, 03:06 PM
I just used a Level 15 Storm Sphinx against the level 1 Rainguin in round 3 of the Thanksgibbon tournament. I used Nature for the first two attacks and they were neutral. I used Electric on the third attack to see what would happen and it was neutral as well. A surprise loss for me. What I mean by neutral is no text on the attack. Something appears to have changed. In past tournaments, A nature attack from Electric/Nature was always strong against Water/Earth.

If nature is no longer strong to water-earth, that means (unless some new strong attack appears, which I think we'd have seen by now) that the ONLY strong attack vs. water-earth is gem. :(
This could also mean (subject to confirmation) that ONLY gem is strong vs. earth-nature now as well, because the only 2 that were strong to it before were nature and gem.

This would be terrible and game-changing news for all the players without a unicorn. It would mean that, if you add Rock Rhino to the 6 earth-nature animals and 4 water-earths there are, there are now 11 opponents that every player with no ultra does not have a strong attack on. :( :( :(

As far as there being fewer attacks registering as "weak" now, as I said upthread, I think that what changed is that it used to be strong + weak = weak; but now strong + weak = neutral. But that doesn't really help as you always want to use strong attacks. I don't see how more neutrals would help.

cocauina
11-11-14, 03:16 PM
Ooops! Okay, sorry about that, and thank you so much for setting me straight. And hopefully that information helps dispel the notion some people have that only Gem is strong against Earth. If your Nature attack was strong against Water-Earth, then Nature still trumps Earth apparently (unless it is now suddenly strong against Water -- not likely).

I will continue gathering everyone's reports.

It's okay :)
TL is always changing the things, we don't like, we get pissed, and sometimes we eat what we are reading like it wasn't there ahahah

cocauina
11-11-14, 03:26 PM
Against Rainguin lvl 1 from the Thanksgibbon tournament, nature attack from Bamboon didn't gave me anything, no weak, strong or critical hit. Peamoth against Rainguin, using nature attack, gave me 2 criticall hits and one attack with no definition.. I don't understand..

Did TL create a system here the attack we use attack only one element random from the animal and that's why we don't get weak, strong and critical hits when the attack we use doesn't affect the right element? What do you have done TL..

ninasidstorm8
11-11-14, 03:40 PM
If nature is no longer strong to water-earth, that means (unless some new strong attack appears, which I think we'd have seen by now) that the ONLY strong attack vs. water-earth is gem. :(
This could also mean (subject to confirmation) that ONLY gem is strong vs. earth-nature now as well, because the only 2 that were strong to it before were nature and gem.

This would be terrible and game-changing news for all the players without a unicorn. It would mean that, if you add Rock Rhino to the 6 earth-nature animals and 4 water-earths there are, there are now 11 opponents that every player with no ultra does not have a strong attack on. :( :( :(

As far as there being fewer attacks registering as "weak" now, as I said upthread, I think that what changed is that it used to be strong + weak = weak; but now strong + weak = neutral. But that doesn't really help as you always want to use strong attacks. I don't see how more neutrals would help.

Since I have no Ultra Rares, I am a bit concerned. I plan to try Dark/Water next against Earth/Water to get some more info. Unfortunately, that is my weakest combo. Rather lose a few early rounds to be better prepared for the end. I wish they had given us a new Battleground to work things out instead.

readysetgo888
11-11-14, 03:42 PM
This doesn't make any sense. What incentive was there for TL to remove Nature as a strong attack to Earth? Do they honestly think that people without a unicorn are going to drop $100 just to get one to be better in the tournaments? Or are they hoping now players without a unicorn will have to use 30 gem ultimate attacks for Earth animals in tournaments? I mean this is just not cool. And it doesn't make much sense. If all they wanted to do was make people spend money on the tournaments they could have just lowered the odds of getting a critical hit... and that wouldn't have been as obvious a change.

Which means, the only thing I can really think that makes sense is we are getting another element... but even that doesn't make much sense. Why change battles so far in advance of the new element? Why change only one aspect of them? Also, what about new players who (presumably) would have to expand to get an animal of the new element and therefore would have no good ability to beat Earth animals in the early battles?

Which means, I wonder if this was some kind of mistake that will be corrected. I wish TL listened to us and would let us know what's going on here.

zenobia42
11-11-14, 03:52 PM
This doesn't make any sense. What incentive was there for TL to remove Nature as a strong attack to Earth? Do they honestly think that people without a unicorn are going to drop $100 just to get one to be better in the tournaments? Or are they hoping now players without a unicorn will have to use 30 gem ultimate attacks for Earth animals in tournaments? I mean this is just not cool. And it doesn't make much sense. If all they wanted to do was make people spend money on the tournaments they could have just lowered the odds of getting a critical hit... and that wouldn't have been as obvious a change.

Which means, the only thing I can really think that makes sense is we are getting another element... but even that doesn't make much sense. Why change battles so far in advance of the new element? Why change only one aspect of them? Also, what about new players who (presumably) would have to expand to get an animal of the new element and therefore would have no good ability to beat Earth animals in the early battles?

Which means, I wonder if this was some kind of mistake that will be corrected. I wish TL listened to us and would let us know what's going on here.

I REALLY hope it was just a mistake, one that will be corrected.

But you may be onto something with the thought of a new element. The thing is, for it to be useful in this tournament, it'd pretty much have to be released TONIGHT. And they already had there release for the day. I guess it could happen tomorrow, especially since they clearly are not even keeping it down to new animals twice a week any more. If so, that is much less brutal than making nature neutral to earth and nothing else newly strong to it. But it is still pretty harsh considering whatever new element we'd clearly not be able get a to a decent level quickly unless the evolve time is only a handful of hours. And that's obviously not very likely.

ninasidstorm8
11-11-14, 03:52 PM
Well my best Dark/Water combo is a Level 10 Chameneon. Lost to a Level 1 Water/Earth again. Both the Water and the Dark attacks were Neutral as I expected. That makes Electric, Nature, Dark and Water all Neutral against Earth/Water.

ninasidstorm8
11-11-14, 03:54 PM
I REALLY hope it was just a mistake, one that will be corrected.

But you may be onto something with the thought of a new element. The thing is, for it to be useful in this tournament, it'd pretty much have to be released TONIGHT. And they already had there release for the day. I guess it could happen tomorrow, especially since they clearly are not even keeping it down to new animals twice a week any more. If so, that is much less brutal than making nature neutral to earth and nothing else newly strong to it. But it is still pretty harsh considering whatever new element we'd clearly not be able get a to a decent level quickly unless the evolve time is only a handful of hours. And that's obviously not very likely.

But they did just release a new element. Treasure (Treasure Toucan). We just haven't seen it in battle yet.

readysetgo888
11-11-14, 03:55 PM
I REALLY hope it was just a mistake, one that will be corrected.

But you may be onto something with the thought of a new element. The thing is, for it to be useful in this tournament, it'd pretty much have to be released TONIGHT. And they already had there release for the day. I guess it could happen tomorrow, especially since they clearly are not even keeping it down to new animals twice a week any more. If so, that is much less brutal than making nature neutral to earth and nothing else newly strong to it. But it is still pretty harsh considering whatever new element we'd clearly not be able get a to a decent level quickly unless the evolve time is only a handful of hours. And that's obviously not very likely.

A new element definitely wouldn't help in this tournament and I doubt it's coming this week anyway. Also it's really weird that Nature would now be strong to absolutely nothing.

readysetgo888
11-11-14, 03:57 PM
But they did just release a new element. Treasure (Treasure Toucan). We just haven't seen it in battle yet.

Even if it is strong to Earth as well that's no more help than only the unicorn being strong. The idea is that the new element would be one that all players can easily get, because it would have commons, rares, and super rares. Otherwise it's completely unfair as the odds of getting a unicorn or toucan are extremely low.

zenobia42
11-11-14, 04:10 PM
Even if it is strong to Earth as well that's no more help than only the unicorn being strong. The idea is that the new element would be one that all players can easily get, because it would have commons, rares, and super rares. Otherwise it's completely unfair as the odds of getting a unicorn or toucan are extremely low.

Exactly. If they have made it that only an ultra rare can land strong attacks on water-earth and on earth-nature, it doesn't matter which ultra rares are strong. What matters is that those who have not had luck on their side yet while trying to breed an ultra rare will have a significantly harder time getting through any tournament now.

And I apologize - I was not at all clear in my post about what if a new element comes along. I meant to say a new non-ultra rare element. Sorry for any confusion I created.

ninasidstorm8
11-11-14, 04:11 PM
FYI, I checked the not to be mentioned web site about this game and still has Nature strong against earth. It also says that Legendary is strong against Nature and Earth but weak against Dark.

zenobia42
11-11-14, 04:16 PM
FYI, I checked the not to be mentioned web site about this game and still has Nature strong against earth. It also says that Legendary is strong against Nature and Earth but weak against Dark.

Legendary is what they call crystal / white gem. That would indicate no change in what gem is strong / weak to. As for the nature still being listed as strong vs. earth, they may just be late in updating it. Sometimes they are very fast, but sometimes it takes a while for things to update there.

ninasidstorm8
11-11-14, 04:26 PM
Is the recent change where Nature no longer produces a strong attack against Earth an intentional change or a bug? In previous battles, an Electric/Nature creature would produce a strong attack against a Water/Earth creature when using the Nature attack. That is no longer the case. It appears that Nature is no longer strong against anything and players without an ultra rare cannot generate a strong attack against earth. I hope this is a bug that an be corrected soon, since the Thanksgibbon tournament has already started and there are a few creatures at the start that have Earth elements. Any information related to this would be helpful.

cocauina
11-11-14, 05:08 PM
Legendary is what they call crystal / white gem. That would indicate no change in what gem is strong / weak to. As for the nature still being listed as strong vs. earth, they may just be late in updating it. Sometimes they are very fast, but sometimes it takes a while for things to update there.

Most of the times, update something without having enough information is not good :)

Against Werewolf lvl 2 on the The Arena, Thunderhawk, Peamoth, Planthers, Fairy Ferret, Bamboon, nature attacks, nothing affects Werewolf, no weak, strong or critical, only my Turtisle that only gave me one nature critical hit and my game a couple seconds later decides to say that he doesn't have Internet and reloads. Well played game, now I will need more a thousand battles to only get a critical hit. Thank you TL.

zenobia42
11-11-14, 05:12 PM
Most of the times, update something without having enough information is not good :)

Against Werewolf lvl 2 on the The Arena, Thunderhawk, Peamoth, Planthers, Fairy Ferret, Bamboon, nature attacks, nothing affects Werewolf, no weak, strong or critical, only my Turtisle that only gave me one nature critical hit and my game a couple seconds later decides to say that he doesn't have Internet and reloads. Well played game, now I will need more a thousand battles to only get a critical hit. Thank you TL.

Lots of people are getting criticals using dark attacks where before they would have tried nature. I've only seen reference to critical hits, not strong ones, though. But is is *possible* that dark is now strong to earth. It's worth testing anyway.

Lesimony
11-11-14, 05:57 PM
I defeated Frostfang with my first hit so no data for him.

Battles against Dark Nature (Spruce Moose and Aurora Pegasus)
Using Nature Fire (Solar Simian) Fire showed strong, Nature showed neutral.
Using Crystal Fire (Ruby Ridgeback) Fire showed strong, Crystal showed neutral.
Using Dark Fire (Firefox) Dark showed neutral, Fire showed strong.
Using Electric Fire (Fire Glider) Electric showed neutral, Fire showed strong.
Using Water Fire (Steamtrunk) Water showed neutral, got a critical with Fire.



Lots of people are getting criticals using dark attacks where before they would have tried nature. I've only seen reference to critical hits, not strong ones, though. But is is *possible* that dark is now strong to earth. It's worth testing anyway.
See post #33, all my dark attacks against Dark Earth showed Neutral.

zenobia42
11-11-14, 06:04 PM
See post #33, all my dark attacks against Dark Earth showed Neutral.
Thanks for clarifying that! Sorry I missed it. I was reacting to the arena thread without re-reading all of this thread. My bad.

Lesimony
11-11-14, 07:48 PM
Battles against Electric Dark (Zapra)
Using Earth Fire (Rampage) both showed Strong.
Using Nature Fire (Solar Simian) Nature showed neutral, Fire showed strong.
Using Water Fire (Steamtrunk) Water showed weak, Fire showed strong.
Using Earth Nature (An Ancient Sloth) Earth showed strong, Nature showed neutral.
This data seems to mean that the elements aren't "combining" to show neutral, but are still showing individual ratings of strong/neutral/weak.

zenobia42
11-11-14, 08:14 PM
Battles against Electric Dark (Zapra)
Using Earth Fire (Rampage) both showed Strong.
Using Nature Fire (Solar Simian) Nature showed neutral, Fire showed strong.
Using Water Fire (Steamtrunk) Water showed weak, Fire showed strong.
Using Earth Nature (An Ancient Sloth) Earth showed strong, Nature showed neutral.
This data seems to mean that the elements aren't "combining" to show neutral, but are still showing individual ratings of strong/neutral/weak.

Oh, wow, that is interesting. Earth being strong vs. earth-nature is definitely new. Previously it was weak to nature and neutral to itself.

And water weak to water-fire, but fire strong to the same... I am REALLY confused now - that is the exact opposite of what it would have been before these changes. TL, WTH are you doing here??????

And nature neutral to nature-fire... is nature now neutral to everything and strong to nothing and weak only to gem now? Or is it neutral now to gem as well.

I am soooooo confused. I'm going to just shut up and wait for Sand or someone else really good at this stuff to figure out what TL did to the battle mechanics. Because I am totally lost. Add to this that some players are getting a "strong attack" message when using nature vs. water-earth, but most players are getting no message (neutral) for the same exact attack with the same exact elements and I can't even begin to guess what is going on here. I'm just very grateful to everyone sharing their data here and in the new arena thread. And especially to noabcd for starting this thread yesterday to try to give us a bit of a head start on the changes in the arena today.

readysetgo888
11-11-14, 09:34 PM
I just got a weak attack from Earth on a Water-Nature animal... That's would suggest that Nature is still dominant over Earth. Maybe the strong attack message was just removed for some reason...

Zenobia I think Lesimony was just saying what all the elements got against Electric-Dark in which case everything posted was as expected.

MelodicStars
11-11-14, 09:47 PM
When I was battling the Jackalope for the thanksgibbon tournament, I used a magmacore and its earth attack. Normally, if earth was no longer weak to plant, it would've said "strong attack" since there was also a fire element. However, it didn't say anything, making it a neutral attack. You guys, I think earth is neutral to plant and vice versa for us, the players, but the opposite for the opponent. Sorry if it doesn't make sense. I tried my best to explain it.

Lesimony
11-12-14, 06:08 AM
S
Zenobia I think Lesimony was just saying what all the elements got against Electric-Dark in which case everything posted was as expected.
Correct. I'm listing the combined elements of my opponent and what I use to fight him in case they started using a combined "score". But it doesnt look like that is the case, since I'm getting consistent results from multiple attacks using the same element.

Splashy81
11-12-14, 06:43 AM
Just throwing in my recent experience with this! I am taking my sweet time with Thorilla because that egg will just go straight to storage (and sit there with about 3 other creatures I have no room for)! Expansions PLEASE!!

Battle 38, gem attack: Crit!
16600

Battle 48, gem attack: Nothing! (same elements as hedgehog, obviously)
16601

Battle 48, nature attack: Nothing!
16602

HMMMMM!!!?????

Ok, I recall that I have very recently leveled up my Troll from an 11 to 13... Lemme give that a shot!

Battle 48, nature attack: voila!
16603

My point is this: I hate leveling up my creatures cause it always messes with what "works" for me in the battlegrounds/tournaments. And my second point is: MORE EXPANSIONS PLEASE!

Again!!

Here is Battle 4 Thanksgibbon...

Troll, nature attack: Nothing! (SEE ABOVE POST!)
16643

Emerald, gem attack, Strong
16644

HMMMM..... What have I leveled up recently??????

Ruby: Gem attack: Critical!
16645

Maybe it's not the Toucan that's changed the odds of the attack against Earth/Nature element, maybe it's the Ruby Razorback & the Steamtrunk. both creatures are able to battle, and they both have new element combos that would have to be configured into the battles.

readysetgo888
11-12-14, 08:13 AM
I'm starting to think nothing changed except that the "strong" message was removed for some reason...

Fighting a Water-Nature animal, I used animals that have Earth-Electric, Earth-Fire, and Earth-Water... in every case the Earth attack was rated weak. In the case of the Electric-Earth, Electric was rated strong while Earth was rated weak. Earth is clearly still weak to Nature as far as going the other way is concerned.

So if you don't have a Gem animal I would recommend continuing to choose your best Nature (possibly Nature-Dark) to fight Earth-Water and Earth-Nature.

kooky panda
11-12-14, 09:33 AM
Is the recent change where Nature no longer produces a strong attack against Earth an intentional change or a bug? In previous battles, an Electric/Nature creature would produce a strong attack against a Water/Earth creature when using the Nature attack. That is no longer the case. It appears that Nature is no longer strong against anything and players without an ultra rare cannot generate a strong attack against earth. I hope this is a bug that an be corrected soon, since the Thanksgibbon tournament has already started and there are a few creatures at the start that have Earth elements. Any information related to this would be helpful.
I will check on this to see if anything as been changed.

ninasidstorm8
11-12-14, 09:52 AM
I will check on this to see if anything as been changed.

Thanks.

Aernak
11-12-14, 09:59 AM
We struggled on all 3 accounts to beat the baby rhino in the new tourney.

I finally beat it with Pegasus (dark crit) and my son won with ancient sloth (earth crit) but I think they were just lucky crits because nothing was strong and we lost many times with frankenswine, sloth, firefox, and other animals. My daughter still has not beat it.

JeannesThinkin
11-12-14, 05:06 PM
We struggled on all 3 accounts to beat the baby rhino in the new tourney.

I finally beat it with Pegasus (dark crit) and my son won with ancient sloth (earth crit) but I think they were just lucky crits because nothing was strong and we lost many times with frankenswine, sloth, firefox, and other animals. My daughter still has not beat it.

Holy. If you did it every hour for a day, that would be 24 tries. Shouldn't TL program it so that after 24 tries you automatically get a crit? It's just cruel to end a tournament when someone was stuck on Level 3 with a hundred tries. Good luck to your daughter!

Anyways, I'm here to drop off a screenshot that may or may not help you guys.
16669
I'm sorry if someone already posted something like this and I had just wasted your time...

readysetgo888
11-12-14, 07:04 PM
I will check on this to see if anything as been changed.

Any answer on this?

noabcd
11-13-14, 12:31 AM
It seems they changed it back. Got a "strong attack" today from a nature attack on an earth-dark creature.
They probably realized that was a mistake....

TokiChunsa
11-13-14, 02:26 AM
I got a critical with pandafodil versus the rhino yesterday.

readysetgo888
11-13-14, 07:58 AM
It seems they changed it back. Got a "strong attack" today from a nature attack on an earth-dark creature.
They probably realized that was a mistake....

Yes, I now see the same thing. Seems to be fixed.

I love how it took several days to address this and not a word from TL about it, when they are clearly active on the forum and can correct other problems instantly if they feel like it. I already knew that they don't care about providing customer service or addressing players' issues, but the handling of this situation could not make it any more obvious. Is there some reason why NO ONE addressed this sooner? In the middle of a time sensitive tournament?

Seeing several mods and TL people active in this forum dealing with other issues while repeatly ignoring posts about this bug is the biggest slap in the face. I would love to have someone from TL respond to this, and explain why they chose to ignore us for so long.

Bambamstad
11-13-14, 08:08 AM
Yes, I now see the same thing. Seems to be fixed.

I love how it took several days to address this and not a word from TL about it, when they are clearly active on the forum and can correct other problems instantly if they feel like it. I already knew that they don't care about providing customer service or addressing players' issues, but the handling of this situation could not make it any more obvious. Is there some reason why NO ONE addressed this sooner? In the middle of a time sensitive tournament?

Seeing several mods and TL people active in this forum dealing with other issues while repeatly ignoring posts about this bug is the biggest slap in the face. I would love to have someone from TL respond to this, and explain why they chose to ignore us for so long.

Like!!

SANDSCApe
11-14-14, 12:21 AM
Yes, I now see the same thing. Seems to be fixed.

I love how it took several days to address this and not a word from TL about it, when they are clearly active on the forum and can correct other problems instantly if they feel like it. I already knew that they don't care about providing customer service or addressing players' issues, but the handling of this situation could not make it any more obvious. Is there some reason why NO ONE addressed this sooner? In the middle of a time sensitive tournament?

Seeing several mods and TL people active in this forum dealing with other issues while repeatly ignoring posts about this bug is the biggest slap in the face. I would love to have someone from TL respond to this, and explain why they chose to ignore us for so long.

Likely they didn't consider it a priority because it was an error in the element tutorial's rating message which didn't affect the actual impact of the attacks. If the odds of rolling a Critical Hit remains the same while the tutorial fails to rate an element, it makes no difference to the outcome of the battle.

I keep saying: The element tutorial does NOT score your attack! You only see "strong", "weak" and blanks on FAIL hits. All fail hits deliver the same ineffective range of damage. Players need to get over this illogical need to see "Strong Attack" flashing across the screen. That information is only useful when you're learning the dominance system or trying to figure out changes.

Unfortunately, the glitch in the tutorial (which is occasionally glitchy anyway, just not this consistently) had us wondering whether there WERE in fact changes to the dominance system, and had some of us doing exhaustive testing which turned out to be unnecessary. The absent rating also gave rise to all kinds of speculation, not to mention the doom-and-gloom proclamations that were approching the brink of hysteria. I sure am happy to see those notions evaporate, although they will probably resurface again the next time an opportunity arises to carry on about imagined injustices against certain players.

Bambamstad
11-14-14, 01:32 AM
Likely they didn't consider it a priority because it was an error in the element tutorial's rating message which didn't affect the actual impact of the attacks. If the odds of rolling a Critical Hit remains the same while the tutorial fails to rate an element, it makes no difference to the outcome of the battle.

I keep saying: The element tutorial does NOT score your attack! You only see "strong", "weak" and blanks on FAIL hits. All fail hits deliver the same ineffective range of damage. Players need to get over this illogical need to see "Strong Attack" flashing across the screen. That information is only useful when you're learning the dominance system or trying to figure out changes.

Unfortunately, the glitch in the tutorial (which is occasionally glitchy anyway, just not this consistently) had us wondering whether there WERE in fact changes to the dominance system, and had some of us doing exhaustive testing which turned out to be unnecessary. The absent rating also gave rise to all kinds of speculation, not to mention the doom-and-gloom proclamations that were approching the brink of hysteria. I sure am happy to see those notions evaporate, although they will probably resurface again the next time an opportunity arises to carry on about imagined injustices against certain players.

I think you are perfectly right considering the tournament, in which you can get a critical hit with every attack. Still a lot of people including me have the feeling the chances are bigger with a dominant element. I know this is not true, but sometimes you grasp every straw (dutch expression, probably different in english)

For the battlegrounds, dominant element is important, because there you have the defensive win, and chosing the dominant element matters in my opinion.
Anyway i am glad that nature flashes strong again against earth, meaning my sloth and vinotaur are coming back in the arena a lot of times.

zenobia42
11-14-14, 09:09 AM
I didn't see any near-hysteria here, just concern, and for good reason I might add. But I guess that's just because when a change is worrisome for someone, I choose to empathize rather than judge them as hysterical or stupid or wrong for feeling that way. But that's just my perspective on this and I know there are a lot of perspectives out there.

Really, I'm just glad nature is showing as strong against earth again. Since we can't see the real mechanics coding the battles, the strong and weak messages are all we have to determine if there are any strong or weak relationships between our fighters and the opponents. So saying something has a strong attack to me means confirmation there is a strong relationship between the element chosen to "attack" with, and the target, not that which element was chosen to be used in the attack was significant. But whatever, I do not like to argue semantics. And I'm just glad it's back to nature being confirmed on-screen as strong to earth.

ninasidstorm8
11-14-14, 09:42 AM
Likely they didn't consider it a priority because it was an error in the element tutorial's rating message which didn't affect the actual impact of the attacks. If the odds of rolling a Critical Hit remains the same while the tutorial fails to rate an element, it makes no difference to the outcome of the battle.

I keep saying: The element tutorial does NOT score your attack! You only see "strong", "weak" and blanks on FAIL hits. All fail hits deliver the same ineffective range of damage. Players need to get over this illogical need to see "Strong Attack" flashing across the screen. That information is only useful when you're learning the dominance system or trying to figure out changes.

Unfortunately, the glitch in the tutorial (which is occasionally glitchy anyway, just not this consistently) had us wondering whether there WERE in fact changes to the dominance system, and had some of us doing exhaustive testing which turned out to be unnecessary. The absent rating also gave rise to all kinds of speculation, not to mention the doom-and-gloom proclamations that were approching the brink of hysteria. I sure am happy to see those notions evaporate, although they will probably resurface again the next time an opportunity arises to carry on about imagined injustices against certain players.

I agree with what you are saying, however, I believe that the error was not just in the tutorial. Being a programmer (though not for games), I cannot think a logical way to code this game where the Strong Attack message would not show up for only one type of attack. It should just reflect something else that is going on (relative strength of the animals). This together with the problems a lot of people had with the Water/Earth creatures lead me to believe that the error was in the calculation of the relative strength and not just the display. Of course my own experience of losing to a level 1 Rainguin with a Level 15 Storm Sphinx, level 10 Chameneon and level 14 Aurora Pegasus before beating it on the fourth try with the Aurora Pegasus, may have influenced my opinion. (After the first loss and no message, I was experimenting a little). It just seems more likely to me the problem was deeper than just displaying the message. Fortunately there were only two Water/Earth creatures in the tournament (I beat the level 7 Iciclaw in round 10 on the first try) so it didn't bother me that much.

SANDSCApe
11-17-14, 05:25 AM
I agree with what you are saying, however, I believe that the error was not just in the tutorial. Being a programmer (though not for games), I cannot think a logical way to code this game where the Strong Attack message would not show up for only one type of attack. It should just reflect something else that is going on (relative strength of the animals). This together with the problems a lot of people had with the Water/Earth creatures lead me to believe that the error was in the calculation of the relative strength and not just the display. Of course my own experience of losing to a level 1 Rainguin with a Level 15 Storm Sphinx, level 10 Chameneon and level 14 Aurora Pegasus before beating it on the fourth try with the Aurora Pegasus, may have influenced my opinion. (After the first loss and no message, I was experimenting a little). It just seems more likely to me the problem was deeper than just displaying the message. Fortunately there were only two Water/Earth creatures in the tournament (I beat the level 7 Iciclaw in round 10 on the first try) so it didn't bother me that much.

The tutorial ONLY rates the element. It has absolutely nothing to do with relative strengths of the animals. It does not score the animal; it does not score the attack. It simply rates the element. The message for a particular element against a given element combo is EXACTLY the same every time, regardless of the levels and rarities of the challenger and responder. So THAT is how it is logical to code the tutorial completely separately from the calculation of the battle scores.

You may think it "should reflect something else that's going on" but it doesn't. The tutorial displays are drawing from an isolated static file. In fact, they can easily turn off the entire tutorial and have the battles shown with no element rating whatsoever. It won't change a darn thing about the battle outcomes. That's how battles appear in Dragon Story. Same battle system; just no element tutorial.

The only connection between the static tutorial messages and the dynamic battle scores is this: whenever you opt to roll the dice (by tapping either element button instead of the purple pill), if you don't roll a Critical Hit, the tutorial pops up like an eager chorus on the same old tune. Let me say this again: the element tutorial is NOT scoring your attack.

In tournaments, people's epic animals lose to the arena's wee babies so frequently, it's ridiculous. Tournaments are riddled with lost battles we think we should have won. People would rather grasp at an explanation for losses that involves a presumed glitch. It's somehow more palatable than the lousy luck of the roll. I didn't notice any difference in the actual battle outcomes, and I was diligently logging the tutorial messages from both the tournament and the regular battlegrounds in 3 different forests. I only noticed that the blasted weaklings often insisted on winning even when I was trying to lose so that I could test other elements against the same challenger. LOL

The temporary disappearance of Nature's messages was a valid reason to suspect that strengths may have changed and for that reason it was cause for concern. But it was not conclusive evidence that there was in fact any change.

SANDSCApe
11-17-14, 05:36 AM
I think you are perfectly right considering the tournament, in which you can get a critical hit with every attack. Still a lot of people including me have the feeling the chances are bigger with a dominant element. I know this is not true, but sometimes you grasp every straw (dutch expression, probably different in english)

For the battlegrounds, dominant element is important, because there you have the defensive win, and chosing the dominant element matters in my opinion.
Anyway i am glad that nature flashes strong again against earth, meaning my sloth and vinotaur are coming back in the arena a lot of times.

Update on that. The defensive win is a default give-away that occurs on every regular Battleground level that ends in a 1 or 6. I have found no evidence of it occurring under any other circumstances.
Absurdly enough, it isn't even about choice of fighters. Whenever you are fighting Battleground level 6, 11, 16, 21, 26, etc., it does NOT matter what animal you throw in there. It is GUARANTEED to win; if it doesn't roll a Critical Hit, it will get a fourth attack because the challenger has a built-in handicap and never hits you hard enough.

ninasidstorm8
11-17-14, 11:02 AM
The tutorial ONLY rates the element. It has absolutely nothing to do with relative strengths of the animals. It does not score the animal; it does not score the attack. It simply rates the element. The message for a particular element against a given element combo is EXACTLY the same every time, regardless of the levels and rarities of the challenger and responder. So THAT is how it is logical to code the tutorial completely separately from the calculation of the battle scores.

You may think it "should reflect something else that's going on" but it doesn't. The tutorial displays are drawing from an isolated static file. In fact, they can easily turn off the entire tutorial and have the battles shown with no element rating whatsoever. It won't change a darn thing about the battle outcomes. That's how battles appear in Dragon Story. Same battle system; just no element tutorial.

The only connection between the static tutorial messages and the dynamic battle scores is this: whenever you opt to roll the dice (by tapping either element button instead of the purple pill), if you don't roll a Critical Hit, the tutorial pops up like an eager chorus on the same old tune. Let me say this again: the element tutorial is NOT scoring your attack.

In tournaments, people's epic animals lose to the arena's wee babies so frequently, it's ridiculous. Tournaments are riddled with lost battles we think we should have won. People would rather grasp at an explanation for losses that involves a presumed glitch. It's somehow more palatable than the lousy luck of the roll. I didn't notice any difference in the actual battle outcomes, and I was diligently logging the tutorial messages from both the tournament and the regular battlegrounds in 3 different forests. I only noticed that the blasted weaklings often insisted on winning even when I was trying to lose so that I could test other elements against the same challenger. LOL

The temporary disappearance of Nature's messages was a valid reason to suspect that strengths may have changed and for that reason it was cause for concern. But it was not conclusive evidence that there was in fact any change.

Thank you for sharing your data. I agree that the tutorial has nothing to do with scoring the attack directly and it doesn’t matter which button you push for the attack. I normally will use each button in a battle to verify things are still working as I expect.

I only use one account, so I personally only have data from four battles in two different rounds where I could see the problem. Not much from a statistical viewpoint. In fact, I cannot personally verify the problem has actually been fixed at this point, though I trust the reports of others that it is fixed.

What I was trying to point out is that if I were writing the code for the battles, I would use the same table of relative strengths between creatures to determine the odds of the critical hit and display the messages for the tutorial. I agree that the messages themselves are probably in separate table, which could be changed or turned off at any time, but my thinking is that the table has three messages (maybe a fourth for blank/neutral). Not a set of messages for each element combination. I think there is a separate table of element combinations that indicate the relative strength of the elements. i.e. Nature vs Earth is a plus 1. It’s just speculation on my part.

If the error that we saw was in the common table used to calculate the odds of the Critical Hit and which message to display, it would affect the outcome of the battle as well. I am not sure if I was clear about that in my previous post.

I am only speculating, and I don’t have enough data to verify this. If you are saying that your observations when the problem was occurring indicate that the error did not affect the critical hit calculations I trust your judgment.

Thanks again for sharing. I enjoy the discussion, hopefully, this gives you a better indication of my thinking.

ninasidstorm8
11-17-14, 01:07 PM
Update on that. The defensive win is a default give-away that occurs on every regular Battleground level that ends in a 1 or 6. I have found no evidence of it occurring under any other circumstances.
Absurdly enough, it isn't even about choice of fighters. Whenever you are fighting Battleground level 6, 11, 16, 21, 26, etc., it does NOT matter what animal you throw in there. It is GUARANTEED to win; if it doesn't roll a Critical Hit, it will get a fourth attack because the challenger has a built-in handicap and never hits you hard enough.

That is an interesting observation. I only kept good data from the Terrorier and Thorilla battleground tournaments and it matches your observation. I never lost a round that met your criteria and all defensive wins were in rounds that met that criteria as well. I was wondering why I never had a defensive win in the arena. You have answered that. Well done and thank you.

kooky panda
11-17-14, 03:35 PM
Is the recent change where Nature no longer produces a strong attack against Earth an intentional change or a bug? In previous battles, an Electric/Nature creature would produce a strong attack against a Water/Earth creature when using the Nature attack. That is no longer the case. It appears that Nature is no longer strong against anything and players without an ultra rare cannot generate a strong attack against earth. I hope this is a bug that an be corrected soon, since the Thanksgibbon tournament has already started and there are a few creatures at the start that have Earth elements. Any information related to this would be helpful.

Sorry for the delay in getting confirmation but this was resolved last week. You should now see correct text for Strong/Weak attacks.