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View Full Version : A proposition to TL on how to save this game and maintain "balance"



zenobia42
09-06-14, 03:38 PM
Team Lava,

If you read the forum at all, you can see there is a lot of frustration here. I have a simple idea I have put forth before in different contexts I would ask you to consider. You worsen the odds on breeding a unicorn, then make breeding an emerald nearly impossible. This has resulted in a privileged few having more than a handful of ultra rares, a significant number with a unicorn who will never get an emerald because they won't try after you changed the rules on us, and a very large group who every day are nearer to quitting the game because it refuses to give us the unicorn it so easily gave the early lucky ones. To make matters worse, those who have ultra rares are able to actually continue to develop their park with the income they rake in, while those of us condemned over and over again on a daily basis to being unlucky, we have that bad luck magnified hugely by the inability to expand. Because expansion and obstacle removal prices are clearly only reasonable for those with huge incomes.

And yet, you claim the changes you are making, the same changes that keep widening the income gap, are in the name of "game balance." So I ask, HOW does this ever-increasing gap between the haves and the have-nots create BALANCE? All I can think is that your idea of balance is not that everyone, at the end of the day, have as much chance of filling their albums as anyone else (because those who did not begin when the game was released AND get lucky early clearly do NOT at this point have anywhere NEAR equal odds to the others at this point). You don't care how incredibly imbalanced it is from that perspective. Your idea of "balance" can logically only be some sort of overall ratio you go for: how many ultra rares are there in the total game divided by number of players. That is the only way that what you are doing could possibly have any twisted sense of "balance." A few folks got more than you expected from the odds you set up, so making everyone else worse off, but counting only total number of ultra rares and total number of players, gives you the overall ratio you want. But how can you NOT see that what you are doing is in fact creating a huge imbalance growing wider by the day from the perspective of each individual playing the game? Because we are not just a number. We EACH, INDIVIDUALLY need to get something out of the game. And we each deserve an EQUAL CHANCE to fill our albums. Make it harder for those already behind makes it more IMBALANCED, not balanced, to us.

You want to keep the number of ultra rares down. Fine. That makes sense. I just beg of you to do that FAIRLY. To allow everyone a decent chance to get one of each. Not make it super easy - it should be challenging, but not as impossible as it is now. Then make it more difficult to get multiples. My proposed solution for this huge inequity is the following:

Make the odds of getting a unicorn increase a very small amount over time for those who do not have one. Then revert back to the low odds permanently for that player.
For example, let's say that the odds right now of getting a unicorn when 4 elements are in the den is 0.5%. After a player puts 4 elements in the den 10 times and has not gotten a unicorn, those odds become 1%. Another 10 fails and it becomes 1.5%. Etc., etc., up to a cap of let's use 5% in this example. Once that player has a unicorn egg, the odds drop back down to the baseline (0.5% in my example) forever for him/her.
The cap on the unicorn odds should = whatever the odds were the day the unicorn was first released.
If a player has zero emerald dragons, they get the 20 second panda fail. When a player has 1 or more emerald dragons, they get the 1 hour panda fail.
The same rules for the emerald dragon apply to any future crystal hybrids.

That's it. In this way, there is no sudden explosion of dozens of each in a kingdom. But those of us who were unlucky early in the game are not condemned for life to never get decent income unless we get rid of nearly all our other animals and only hatch & level up super rares, giving us suky and un-fun parks.

Please.

mysticfrost
09-06-14, 04:08 PM
I second this!

zenobia42
09-06-14, 04:18 PM
I second this!

Thanks!

I really do think that they are only looking at the overall picture (or, I should say, overall numbers, not an actual fleshed-out picture). And forgetting that it is individuals playing this game. They are not looking at this from the right perspective. They are not putting themselves in our shoes and seeing if what they are doing is something to cause most individuals to keep playing, or to leave.

Petasos
09-06-14, 04:25 PM
I think you are misunderstanding the word balance from TLs perspective. The game is not balanced because too many super and ultra rares are currently being given out. That results in less gems being purchased to try breeding for those items. Full album players do not spend money.
As for the increasing breeding times for new animals that will get worse and worse. Once again to encourage gem purchasing and speed breeding. Everyone is forgetting that TL is not in the fairness, customer service, or build a community business. They are in the making real money business. That is the way all of their games are designed to operate. That is why you will never get what you are asking for. Nor will a 20 sec panda ever return to 20 secs. Why? Because we are paying 5 gems for the one hour wait. Why would they change it?

I like what you are saying and I empathize. But all of you need to take broader look at this. More money is more balanced, period. And they are very good at getting it from us.

zenobia42
09-06-14, 04:36 PM
I think you are misunderstanding the word balance from TLs perspective. The game is not balanced because too many super and ultra rares are currently being given out. That results in less gems being purchased to try breeding for those items. Full album players do not spend money.
As for the increasing breeding times for new animals that will get worse and worse. Once again to encourage gem purchasing and speed breeding. Everyone is forgetting that TL is not in the fairness, customer service, or build a community business. They are in the making real money business. That is the way all of their games are designed to operate. That is why you will never get what you are asking for. Nor will a 20 sec panda ever return to 20 secs. Why? Because we are paying 5 gems for the one hour wait. Why would they change it?

I like what you are saying and I empathize. But all of you need to take broader look at this. More money is more balanced, period. And they are very good at getting it from us.

How does giving a few people tons of ultra rares and a lot of people none or maybe one generate money? If they wanted to force people to buy them for gems not breed them, they should have made it as difficult as it is now from the get-go. By making it really easy, then making it really difficult, all they do is anger everyone that it is really difficult for. It does NOT make me want to spend money on the game. It does the opposite!

But I get what you are saying. When they use the word "balanced", it is a smoke screen. Just an ambiguous word that is not at ALL what they are doing, intended to make us think that what they are doing is fair, when in reality it is just greedy.

Petasos
09-06-14, 04:42 PM
They made a mistake at first and fixed it. Now very few ultra rares are showing up. They also learned from DS, and are not allowing the 10 and 20 sec ultra breeds. They are "balancing" the low breed time ultras. It also benefits them to have members with lots of ultras showing off their stock. Envy is a powerful motivator.

igames4me
09-06-14, 04:45 PM
I like your suggestions.... I also think that tl instead if making panda 1 hr is unfair.. Instead they should have limit the number of crystal hybrids to 2-3 and then they were capped.

I think when tl says balance is that they don't want people to finish album/battles/ expansions to fast
So the way to slow them down is increased breeding times

benjessie
09-06-14, 05:14 PM
I have one unicorn and one emerald dragon, so I have two ultra rares. If players like me who already had one emerald dragon and went for another one, then the breeding time for a panda should be one hour, but for people with just a unicorn and want an emerald dragon, there should only be twenty second panda fails. Same with the unicorn. If people who wanted their first unicorn, then it should be just a little easier than it is right now. Then if they went for a second it should be like it is right now (hard). By the way for those that want my combo for unicorn, I used Chromadile+Armordillo. I got it on first try.

zenobia42
09-06-14, 05:51 PM
They made a mistake at first and fixed it. Now very few ultra rares are showing up. They also learned from DS, and are not allowing the 10 and 20 sec ultra breeds. They are "balancing" the low breed time ultras. It also benefits them to have members with lots of ultras showing off their stock. Envy is a powerful motivator.

But isn't it true that they had already "balanced" DS (as in, changed to the long ultra rare breed fail) before rolling out the emerald dragon in FFS? If what they wanted was very few emeralds in this game, they already knew that making long breed fails was the best blocker and they would have done that from the start. If that is the case, then the bigger revelation is the bolded part of your quote. That they intentionally created a situation in which a few players win the lottery and constantly show that off, then make it near impossible, in order to rile up everyone else... hoping that the result of that mass discontent will be to buy gems?

I'm sorry but that is 100 times WORSE than what I had even suspected. That is, to be perfectly frank, evil, if that is what they did.

my607
09-06-14, 06:05 PM
It's unfair that some players have many of these ultra rares while many of us have none or maybe just one. TL you need to increase the chance for us non ultra rare players to get the ultra rare. It's so frustrating time and time again we end with a common animal or a duplicate of other animals.

Petasos
09-06-14, 06:45 PM
DS still has 10 second diamond/red and 20 sec diamond/green. Once you get a diamond dragon you can fill your land with just a little time and farming. They are too invested to change DS. My guess is they do not have as many staff working on this game until they see the profit margin. Which is why we see changes after about amonth or two. All games follow that cycle within reason.
You are a CS player, there are certain "things" that will not change and that is by design. No matter how long and how many people ask. There is nothing wrong with that so long as you know your place in the environment. Changes will be made so long as they help the bottom line. That doesn't make the game less fun, just more frustrating until you do get an ultra.
Then you have other decisions to make. To be honest compared to what you are dealing with now an hour wait time is a godsend. But like DS we will eventually have 20 hour fails on diamonds and likely percent increasers and all of that. Why recreate the wheel when you have one that works very well?

I am not trying to be negative just realistic. I am pretty sure things are going to stay the way they are. TL may throw us an occasional bone but that will be to placate us. Sorry just my experience playing online games for 20 years. And being a tech director who has a programming department.

:)

BlueCanary
09-06-14, 07:13 PM
I like this game and have no Unicorn. I also have no trouble making enough money to keep up. I just keep throwing my four elements into the nest with crossed fingers and hope that the right number gets rolled :) I didn't get a diamond until I was in the 90's in DS, it can be frustrating to wait but its just a matter of luck.

I honestly think it seems a lot worse than it really is because there's some people who go on about their good luck in pretty much any thread about anything here. The game is young and things will get adjusted, sometimes to our advantage and sometimes against. It happens in all games.

Petasos
09-06-14, 07:21 PM
I like this game and have no Unicorn. I also have no trouble making enough money to keep up. I just keep throwing my four elements into the nest with crossed fingers and hope that the right number gets rolled :) I didn't get a diamond until I was in the 90's in DS, it can be frustrating to wait but its just a matter of luck.

I honestly think it seems a lot worse than it really is because there's some people who go on about their good luck in pretty much any thread about anything here. The game is young and things will get adjusted, sometimes to our advantage and sometimes against. It happens in all games.

I don't think it can be said any better.

chalupa2030
09-06-14, 08:17 PM
I like this game and have no Unicorn. I also have no trouble making enough money to keep up. I just keep throwing my four elements into the nest with crossed fingers and hope that the right number gets rolled :) I didn't get a diamond until I was in the 90's in DS, it can be frustrating to wait but its just a matter of luck.

I honestly think it seems a lot worse than it really is because there's some people who go on about their good luck in pretty much any thread about anything here. The game is young and things will get adjusted, sometimes to our advantage and sometimes against. It happens in all games.

Well said!! I think that is very true ^. Very passionate players are hurt and feeling slighted when others go on and on about 9 unicorns 10 emeralds.

I just play and have fun! It is what it is. A game. Evey time I breed I try for my unicorn. Some day. But I am getting some rare and super rares.....and duplicates!

And I love to battle!

Sefyre
09-07-14, 05:40 AM
Firstly, I wanted to say that I sympathize and empathize on the feelings of frustration regarding breeding and its mechanics and how changes to the game affects the outcome of breeding and related things.

Secondly, I wanted to say that I would support such a feature if it was implemented; I know of some 'breeding' type games that implement it (or they used to) and where I have no idea if it works better in practice, it seems like players at least feel a little more secure in knowing that someday, their chances of that 'ultimate' breed will be high enough for their game to finally give them one.

Thirdly, I would like to share my own experience regarding breeding and individual RNG results with the hopes of illustrating another crazy side of the RNG spectrum.

Though the experience I am going to share is related to Dragon Story, I think the thoughts related to it could very well apply to Fantasy Forest (I'm currently level 11 on it, so I'm fairly new to the game) and to any other TeamLava 'breeding'-related game.

It's a bit long so if you don't want to read, then just skip on over - I honestly won't mind. :)

I'm an old-ish DS player who used to also play Monster Story before it got retired (I loved it!). I'm now playing Fantasy Forest and given that I've played several 'breeding' games put out by TeamLava, I can say that luck and an individual's RNG is seriously just plain weird sometimes regardless of the game and regardless of 'changes' made to the games by the devs in attempts to 'balance' the game out more.

As an example:

When playing DS, I sincerely thought that I was just destined to have the worst individual RNG, EVER. One of my best friends was playing DS at the same time and while they were breeding Rares and Super Rares like many of the forum members here were and with some kind of regularity, I kept breeding not just Commons, but the exact same Commons every single time, no matter how many colors I was using. As a result, I can hardly stand to look at Firestorm Dragons even though I love their design.

So after having an island filled with a bunch of Commons, repeated Commons, and a sparse handful of Rares and Super Rares and then REPEATED Rares and Super Rares and after having no luck with Event Dragons (insult to injury), I kind of quit and then came back and got started breeding again when Halloween Dragons were once again released.

I once again failed to breed any Event Dragons whatsoever and shortly after, the winter-themed Dragons were released and that was when my RNG did something spectacularly crazy.

I was only level 40something and I was trying to breed either an Elf or a Fireworks Dragon during the winter breeding event, but as always, I was having no luck with it whatsoever. Remember the Firestorm pest problem I had? Well, here it was AGAIN and almost nothing BUT Firestorms! I started from using pure colors to using hybrids to finally throwing in the craziest combos at my most desperate and would you guess what happened?

Somehow, I ended up breeding TWO Diamond Dragons nearly back-to-back and I bred both of them using the same parents. So not only did I breed two Diamonds but they are ALSO 'blood' siblings since their parents are the exact same!

You would think I would have been jumping for joy but the real truth of the matter is, I wasn't looking for one, and having two so close together completely clogged my breeding and nesting areas and since this was the tail end of the Event, that was the end of the Event as well for me and I very much wanted to breed the Event dragons but couldn't.

I ended up quitting the game because I was 'stuck' babysitting two Diamonds while most everyone else was still busily working on trying to breed Elves and Fireworks. I got neither of the Event Dragons and since they were Event-only, I COULDN'T breed them later unless they were re-released and given my previous failures at breeding Dragons in general for my park, I just called it quits.

What kind of park gives you a horrible rate on even the everyday-available Rares and Super Rares but suddenly throws out two Diamonds within the span of not even a handful of breedings? I never thought such a thing could be possible, but it did and does and my park stands as testimony to this and I think my old rant thread is still around.

At some point, I picked the game back up but didn't do much but within the last two weeks, I started breeding more aggressively to see if I could - once again - breed some new Dragons for my park (and I'm just talking about the OLD Rares and Super Rares from before the Pink Dragons were released!)...

And what do you know?

A couple of days ago, by some unknown chance, I tossed in a Super Dragon and my Olympus Dragon to breed for HOPEFULLY -some- kind of Olympus Dragon or just any other Dragon I missed over the months I've been gone (remember, I quit the game before) and wouldn't you know?

Out popped ANOTHER Diamond.

I'm speechless.

This third Diamond Dragons means that within no more than two dozen breedings, I managed to breed -3-Diamond Dragons... and none of the other Dragons I was trying for.

My park is still missing a ton of older Rare and Super Rare Dragons. My Quest List is HUGE because of not just the NEW Quests that pop up but also because of the OLD ones that I haven't been able to fulfill no matter how I try to breed. I breed Commons like nobody's business and when I get frustrated and toss in rainbow colors, apparently a Diamond is very possible.

I don't think that's supposed to happen, but that's... just my park's 'luck'.

Am I happy about it?

No, I'm not.

Why?

Because, still, I want my -other- Dragons, first, and that's the other side of the coin.

I had so so SO many missing Rares and Super Rares I could have bred instead of those Diamonds, but for some unexplained reason, tossing in rainbow colors gave me a relatively high chance (in comparison to breeding Rare and Super Rares that I don't already own!) for Diamonds and my RNG decided to go for it.

All that said, 'luck' is relative. Yes, TL tweaks a bunch of stuff and they've tweaked a TON of things in DS over time, but nothing - even adjusted breeding chances and 'crazy' whatevers (there was a time where the timers weren't accurate and breeding pures was possible; not sure if breeding pures besides Purple is still possible in the same way) - are a 'guaranteed' thing.

Some people might say I got extremely lucky (I would have to say so from a statistical standpoint given what was possible and just how many OTHER Dragons I could have bred), but I'm the person who couldn't and still can't seem to breed Rares and Super Rares no matter who I try or how hard I try and I'm the person who has a really odd looking park where there are Commons galore, multiples of certain Dragons galore (because if I managed to breed certain ones, they kept getting repeated despite the variety of color choices possible), a sore need for more Dragon variety... and three very out of place and very random Diamond Dragons.

Believe it or not, I'd so totally trade someone a Diamond to get a lesser Rare Dragon or two that I tried my heart out for and never could get. People turned green when I got my Diamonds, I turned green during almost every Event because I could never breed any of them even though their rarity was lower and in some cases, MUCH lower.

It IS possible to breed creatures when you least expect them and even when you think the odds are totally against you (because of changed game mechanics, too early in the game, etc) and especially when thinking back to my experience with DS, I really feel your frustration at breeding.

zenobia42
09-07-14, 10:25 AM
Sefyre, thanks for sharing that story! I can totally empathize with how frustrating that must have been for you! A 45-hour breed is the LAST thing you want when you have a clock ticking down. That must be considerably more agonizing than the just waiting forever we are having here. And yes, we totally get each other in terms of altering the parameters in which the RNG operates - that for those of us whose lame RNG always pops up a number at one end of the spectrum, the idea is that the net being cast eventually is big enough to catch that unlucky number we seem to always throw. And that once you've finally caught it, you actually want to revert to the small net.

Also want to add, if there is anyone reading and wondering WTH RNG means: RNG = random number generator. In any chance-related game, it is like a digital dice roll. It pops out a number which is then translated into the outcome you see. For example, in a breeding game, if there is a 1% chance of a certain outcome, it is like rolling a 100-sided die, and only if the number 100 is rolled do you get that one. If you roll a 1-40, you get this one, if you roll 41-60, that one, etc. My suggestion in the OP is that if the RNG for the crystal unicorn is 1-200, and only the number 200 being "rolled" gets you the unicorn, after a bit, rolling either 199 or 200 will get it. Then 198-200... So that if your RNG sucks and you are never rolling a number over 180, eventually even the number 180 will get you one. Then you are back to only getting it with the number 200. And I want to note again that I have no CLUE what the actual odds are on anything in this game. The numbers I use are just as an example.